So, I could write a really polite open letter. You know, kind of a figurative tap on the shoulder to say: "Hey guys, when you're writing and commenting about these charges against Julian Assange, you're sort of perpetuating awful stereotypes and sexist arguments about women and rape..."
Fuck polite. I am so done with polite.
I'll begin with an uber-basic overview: Julian Assange is the Director of WikiLeaks, a not-for-profit media organization that, according to the original website, provides an "innovative, secure and anonymous way for sources to leak information to our journalists." This year, WikiLeaks has been releasing thousands upon thousands of classified and secret US documents regarding the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now diplomatic cables. Bonanza! Unsurprisingly, some folks, like the US government and military, aren't too pleased about it.
But the subject of this rant is the discussion surrounding the sexual assault charges. In August 2010, an investigation was opened in Sweden regarding allegations that Assange had raped one women and sexually harassed another woman that same month while in Sweden. The investigation went full steam ahead and charges were filed by a Swedish prosecutor for rape, sexual molestation, and unlawful coercion, according to press reports, although translations of legal charges do not always do the original charges justice. In November, after a Stockholm court approved a detention request to question Assange, an Interpol red notice and a European Arrest Warrant were both issued.
One main reaction has been that these are trumped up investigations and charges, that the timing in relation to the leaking of important documents is no coincidence, and that prosecution is rather, shall we say, zealous.
People say "but these charges are trumped up! the charges are bogus!" and that may be true and it may not. But why is the starting point for discussion the dismissal of the allegations? You know, it IS POSSIBLE that Julian Assange DID sexually assault a woman in Sweden AND that the charges are trumped up in a way and dealt with in a certain way because of his work with WikiLeaks.
So let's get this straight. You can wrap your head around the fact that there is cross-border collusion and manipulation by police, judicial, and other governmental authorities from various countries... and I agree that there is... but you cannot understand that there may *also* have actually been a sexual assault? Just because someone is being persecuted for their work means that they cannot be guilty of something like sexual harassment?
If you can't see that your logic is flawed and that one (persecution) does not exclude the other (sexual assault), maybe you shouldn't write an article about it. And if you are going to get into the whole issue and write about it in your blog or article or facebook status or whatever, why isn't your starting point the allegation of sexual assault made by the woman instead of its outright dismissal or an attack against her?
Why is the reaction "this is bogus!" as opposed to "why can't the investigation and prosecution of all sex crimes worldwide be so damn efficient?" Seriously. If there is persecution of Assange through the legal system, it is only clear because the reaction is so uncommon. Imagine if women denouncing rape and sexual assault were taken so seriously that there were immediate and thorough investigations, charges filed in a timely manner, and arrest warrants enforced so enthusiastically as in this case. This rarely happens.
Another main reaction, actually probably the principal point of discussion, concerns the details of the allegations and charges. Obviously, none of us can really know for sure what went on in someone else's bedroom, but Assange does admit to consensual sex with the two women making the allegations.
The rape allegation stems from an incident that began as consensual sex using a condom. According to most accounts, something happened to this condom (broken, split, removed, whatever, take your pick). Also according to most accounts, at some point the woman protested concerning the lack of protection, and later also protested that Assange reportedly refused to go for STD testing. And I'm sure there will be a shitstorm of responses explaining to me how I'm wrong because, you know, other people were, like, there.
The next messed up debate is over whether what happened constituted rape or sexual assault. Apparently there's a little-used law in Sweden that can land you up to two years in jail for sex without a condom. I don't know what the details are, but I'm assuming it's a little more complex than that?! Anyways, according to her own account, the woman's main issue was that at some point during consensual sex with a condom, the condom [fill in your blank here with some version that basically means the condom is now ineffective]. And that later on, after she protested the lack of protection, her request to Assange that he get tested for STDs was refused.
Swedish laws aside, a lot of the discussion going on seems to center on whether or not the sex was consensual, and what the definition of consensual is, since it's such a subjective issue. Wait! What the fuck?
For some thoughts on the matter, I'm going to turn to the only post I have seen that sheds some sanity on the discussion. Oh, wait, it's also the only post on the subject written by a woman that I have seen. Oh yeah, and also the only post written by someone who publicly identifies as a survivor of sexual assault that I have seen.
In her post "How Must She Behave to Have Been Raped?" on her blog Almost Diamonds, Stephanie Zvan responds to the issue of consent:
"It doesn't matter whether a woman consented to have sex with you. If she tells you to stop, and you don't stop, that is still sexual assault. I don't care how frustrating it is or whether you hate her for the rest of your life for it. Sex you have with someone without their permission is rape.
Let's say that again: Sex you have with someone without their permission is rape.
One more time just for clarity: Sex you have with someone without their permission is rape.
Does that tell me whether Assange did what he's accused of doing? Nope. I just don't know. And neither do you."
Although, sadly, if men haven't picked up on what consent is by now, I'm not sure even the clear, enunciated repetition will help make it sink in.
So I've addressed a few of the issues that seem to have come up again and again, even in comments from men I know and for whom I have generally felt respect. But let's take a look at what some of the articles being re-posted all over social media networks and email lists look like with a couple concrete examples.
To start off, how about taking a look at Counterpunch, since it is relatively well-known by progressive folks, and in particular, the article Assange Beseiged: Making a Mockery of the Real Crime of Rape by Israel Shamir and Paul Bennett. Calling the allegations "farcical rape charges," Shamir and Bennett write: "Julian Assange now stands accused of: (1) not calling a young woman the day after he had enjoyed a night with her, (2) asking her to pay for his bus ticket, (3) having unsafe sex, and (4) participating in two brief affairs in the course of one week."
Those are clearly not the accusations. Repeating irrelevant details, except perhaps for "having unsafe sex," comes across as dismissive and mocking. The inclusion of irrelevant information and the exclusion of relevant information is misleading and serves to discredit the woman alledging sexual assault.
Shamir and Bennett go on to elaborate on "her anti-Castro, pro-CIA streak" and that she "apparently indulges in her favorite sport of male-bashing," something they learned from a "Swedish forum" and then continued to discuss in detail. Wait, a forum as in a chat forum, right? So if I find some random chat forum online that talks about how Shamir and Bennett are evil warlocks and discusses how they apparently indulge in their favourite sport of infant-bashing, can I report it as fact and publish my piece on Counterpunch too?
Or what if I actually shared the source? Let's say that I checked out the May 2004 issue of Searchlight, a UK-based monthly print magazine against racism and fascism that has been around for 35 years. Let's say that I specifically read the article "Israeli Writer is Swedish Anti-Semite" by Tor Bach, Sven Johansen and Lise Apfelblum.
I know, the title kind of sounds like a conspiracy theory, but the well-researched article is actually about Counterpunch author Israel Shamir aka Joran Jermas. He changed his name to Jermas in 2001, roughly around the time he started publishing online under the name Israel Shamir. The Searchlight article breaks down Shamir/Jermas' own virulent anti-Semitism, but also his close connections to fascists and conspiracy theorists. Now, there's nothing wrong with having friends who are into shape-shifting lizards, but the article also details a series of lies told and written by Shamir/Jermas regarding his identity, residence, and former employment.
Apparently Counterpunch co-editor Alexander Cockburn didn't do much digging into either authors or sources, because Cockburn cited the aforementioned article co-authored by Shamir in his own recent article "Julian Assange: Wanted by the Empire, Dead or Alive." Granted, Cockburn certainly does not delve into the issue much, or replicate some of Shamir's more ludicrous statements, but the third paragraph of his article certainly echoes Shamir's dismissal of the rape allegations quite closely: "[Assange is] wanted in Sweden for questioning in two alleged sexual assaults, one of which seems to boil down to a charge of unsafe sex and failure to phone his date the following day."
Cockburn's next two paragraphs quote Shamir/Jermas about the alledged "ties to the US-financed anti-Castro and anti-communist groups" of one of the women accusing Assange. These ominous "ties" may exist, but they both overstated and self-referencing back to Shamir.
What is fascinating to me is that Counterpunch co-editor Cockburn only attributes the quotes to Shamir, when the Counterpunch article - also linked to by Cockburn - is clearly co-authored by Shamir and Paul Bennett. When I googled Israel Shamir, I immediately found the Searchlight article and a whole slew of information concerning his sketchiness. But I'm now looking for anything on Paul Bennett but can find no record of such a person except as an online co-author with Shamir/Jermas on articles about Assange and how the sexual assault charges are bogus and how the woman is connected to the CIA. (cue X files music! shape-shifting lizards!)
Ok, seriously folks, CIA ties or not is not the issue here. *But* since what has been said about it in multiple articles and by multiple people all seems to come back to the words of Israel Shamir aka Joran Jermas aka one hell of a sketchy dude, let's see what he says on the subject.
Shamir says that Anna Ardin, who alledges that Assange sexually assaulted her, published a couple articles in Swedish in some Cuba review journal. Apparently professor Michael Seltzer (oh shit, this isn't one of Shamir/Jermas' conspiracy theory buddies, is it?) says the publication is a product of a "well-financed anti-Castro organization in Sweden" which in turn has links to Union Liberal Cubana, led by Carlos Alberto Montaner, who has been accused of being linked to the CIA.
That's right. She published a couple anti-Castro articles in a journal linked to an organization linked to an organization led by a guy with ties to the CIA. Oh, and in Cuba, she "interacted with" a feminist anti-Castro group that is supported by Luis Posada Carriles. The thousands of posts online about how this woman's sexual assault allegations are bogus because of her "CIA ties" come back to those indirect connections alledged by Shamir/Jermas.
That's it? That's fucking it? That is everyone's proof that the sexual assault charges must be a sham? I love how just the mention of "CIA ties" gets people up in arms about how the woman alledging sexual assault is a tool of the CIA to discredit Assange. Maybe so, maybe not. But all of the available written material essentially comes down to the fact that if you replace Kevin Bacon with Luis Posada Carriles, you could play 6 degrees of separation with the woman? Hell, I bet I would only be a couple degrees of separation from Luis Posada Carriles...
Jesus, Murphy... Kirk James Murphy, M.D., in fact. He also referenced the whole "CIA" connections and anything he could come up with to discredit the allegations of sexual assault in a post that has been circulating way too much. It is pretty awesome that he starts out by giving props to the Counterpunch folks who "broke" the story.
Actually, in light of the above examination, the title is pretty hilarious: Assange Accuser Worked with US-Funded, CIA-Tied Anti-Castro Group. But let's leave the CIA and get back to the rape. Check out this paragraph:
"I’ve spent much of my professional life as a psychiatrist helping women (and men) who are survivors of sexual violence. Rape is a hideous crime. Yet in Assange’s case his alleged victim – the gender equity officer at Uppsula University – chose to throw a party for her alleged assailant..."
Do I need to hold anyone's hand through this? I'm a big dick shrink and therefore I get to say when it's rape and when it's not. Her job as a gender equity officer at a University means she can't possible be raped. She knew her alledged assailant, so she couldn't have been raped. She threw him a party, so she *definitely* couldn't have been raped. Wow, it's like a course! The Perpetuation of Rape Myths 101.
That paragraph is what started this whole rant. That piece - along with the two Counterpunch pieces - was posted on facebook by people I know. When I say people, I mean, you know, "progressive" people. Wait, scratch out the "people" and replace it with "men."
When I passionately objected to the rape myths being perpetuated in a disgusting way in that particular paragraph, the response I got, including from a friend (yeah, you guessed it, of the penis-wielding variety) was the whole "CIA ties! She's 6 degrees of separation from Posada Carriles!"
Holy shape-shifting lizards! Fuck you!
Okay, well, I wouldn't want to sign off without letting Shamir (and Bennett?) wax poetic: "We need our captain Neo, whether chaste or womanizer, in order to uncover the secret doings of our governments behind the Matrix. For our own sakes, we must all do our part to protect him from castrating feminists and secret services alike."
Oh my god! The issue is about protecting a womanizer from castrating feminists for our own sakes! Of course! (slaps forehead) Why didn't I understand that before I was sidetracked by all of those pesky sexual assault charges and rape myth perpetuations?
Seriously though, guys, don't call him "our captain Neo." First of all, Morpheus is a captain - Neo's captain, in fact - not Neo. But more importantly, Neo is WAY hotter than Assange...
For those of you who are sick and tired of the whole Julian Assange saga and all of the cult-of-personality shit, power to you! I mean, if people want to find a hero, try supporting Bradley Manning, the 23-year-old US Army intelligence analyst who [is accused of actually leaking] the documents and whose legal persecution will not resemble a soap opera.*
I personally wish that Julian Assange were some asexual, ugly, pimply, suspender-wearing teenager with braces who lives in his mom's basement. Maybe then people would spend more time discussing the actual leaked documents and cables, as opposed to arguing about how there's no way some anti-Castro, gender-equity-working, Assange-acquainted woman who originally consented to sex with Assange and threw him a party could possibly ever be sexually assaulted by him.
But if someone you love and respect posts a disgusting piece full of bullshit sexist arguments about women and rape on the whole Assange saga, don't let it go unchecked. Hell, if some asshole you hate posts something vile of the sort, feel free to hurl the link to this rant like a molotov cocktail onto their facebook wall with such force that it shatters their screen.
Written by Sandra Cuffe and a whole lot of coffee. No shape-shifting lizards were harmed in the writing of this rant.
* This sentence was edited on December 9th, in response to a comment (below) made by Melinda. The original sentence - "Bradley Manning... who actually leaked the documents" - was factually incorrect. The hyperlink to the Bradley Manning Support Network was also added on December 9th, 2010. - S.C.
The site for the Vancouver local of The Media Co-op has been archived and will no longer be updated. Please visit the main Media Co-op website to learn more about the organization.
Commentaires
heh
I *knew* it all came back to the lizards! ;)
Oo
ho my...
i agree let s fuck polite.
I don't really know how i ended on that page but seriously ??
Let's bypass the border/cia/leak/whatever of the case, you actually think that the woman can invite the guy at home, have consentual sex with him, and then charge for rape because mid-sex (choose the good sentence)
1/the condom broke
2/ it started raining
3/some lezards shift-shaped
???
Once again...
When consent is given, it is not eternal. If I consent to have sex with someone tonight, I can decide to *not* have sex with them tomorrow. Similarly, consent can be withdrawn mid-sex. If the partner continues, that is rape. Sex without consent is rape.
A comment by Kate on facebook sums it up pretty well:
"If the boundaries of consent [are] that a partner wear a condom and said partner takes off the condom, that is at least sexual assault if not rape."
Beautiful
Thank you
:)
You're very welcome!
Excellent
Many, many thanks for posting this
Many, many you're welcomes
:)
I appreciate
your rage
your clarity
your schoolin' me
your style :)
for those who have strong feelings in response, in reaction, try hearing instead of discussing. Rereading, thinking about whats being expressed. Accepting. There's alot of truth being told here.
Only issue with wonderful post
Dear Sandra, love everything about the post except for one thing: Bradley Manning hasn't been convicted of anything at this point. C.I. of The Common Ills (who took down Naomi Wolf's loony post yesterday) has pointed out that Manning has never spoken to the public about this, can't, has not entered a plea. So it's really not our place to say he's the one who did it. The US government says so and they've charged him. However, there's been no trial and Manning has entered no plea.
He may be the leaker, he may not be. But his side has not been told. As with the two women and Julian Assange, we need to say "I don't know" when it comes to Manning and not convict him based on charges.
Bradley Manning
Melinda,
Thanks so much for your comment! You're right, my comment re Manning in the piece is incorrect and damaging. I should have checked into it before I wrote that, but I only started digging into what has been going on with Bradley Manning afterwards, but I didn't catch that I had said "who actually leaked the documents" in my piece...
I would still make the argument re "if people need a hero," and still feel that so much attention is focused on Assange, that attention to both the actual documents *and* especially Bradley Manning have suffered. Despite not knowing who leaked the documents, I do think that supporting Manning is important. I found a link to his support network after I wrote the piece, which, actually, I should hyperlink into his name: http://www.bradleymanning.org/
I'll edit the incorrect sentence and note the edit: "I mean, if people want to find a hero, try supporting Bradley Manning, the 23-year-old US Army intelligence analyst who [accused of actually leaking] the documents and whose legal persecution will not resemble a soap opera."
Thank you *very much* for the correction!
Sandra
http://wmtc.blogspot.com/2010
http://wmtc.blogspot.com/2010/12/thoughts-on-rape-charges-against-julian...
Thanks for sharing
L-girl,
I really do thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, I feel that your post is very contradictory in some ways, and flat out incorrect in others. So I'm going to dissect your post a little, as feedback/response to a public post, since you posted the link as a response to my piece.
If you read through your first and second paragraphs together, it says:
"I stand in solidarity with victims of rape and sexual assault, everywhere, always. [break] But somehow, it must also be said that not all accusations of rape are valid and true."
I am quite sure that this juxtaposition is not intentional. But it somes across as "I stand in solidarity... But..." I know that people do not intend to make those kind of statements, but it is quite similar to others, such as "I am not racist. But... [fill in this blank with a racist statement]." The second sentence contradicts the first. You are saying that you "stand in solidarity with victims of rape and sexual assault, everywhere, always"... But then it ends up seeming like you are judging who is a "real victim" and who is not, who is telling the truth and who is lying.
Regarding the use of "victims" - and this is more just an FYI - I would encourage the use of "survivors" instead. I am a survivor of sexual assault. I am not a victim. Survivors of sexual assault don't need to be made into victims. "Victims" is associated with helplessness, while "survivors" is associated with empowerment.
"But somehow, it must also be said that not all accusations of rape are valid and true."
You're just opening a can of worms with that one... The point is that the *starting point* needs to be to take every allegation of rape *seriously* and investigated and, if there is enough evidence for a case, prosecuted. Taking *all* allegations of rape and sexual assault *seriously* does not mean that they are all true. But that is really not for you to judge. That's the role of the judicial system is for, for better or for worse.
"Historically, women who reported rape were easily dismissed, or rape went largely unreported, because the victim and assailant knew each other, or had had consensual sex on other occasions, or the victim was sexually active, or any number of dangerous myths used to control women's behaviour. This has changed - although not entirely - in North America, because of the influence of feminist activism, but is still the case in many parts of the world."
Ok, if you are going to make sweeping statements about issues surrounding reporting rape are happening in North America and around the world, you *really* need to back that up with facts. If it is an opinion, it should be stated as such: "I think that... In my opinion, this has changed..." That said, there is really no reason for those to be statements of opinions *or* incorrect sweeping generalizations, when you can easily find the actual information on the issue.
I could probably take two minutes and find statistics to prove you wrong. I'll pick the "rape went largely unreported" as an example. Hang on... Yup. So if you had done a ten-second google search, for example, you could have found clear statistics on these issues, based on official sources and numbers.
The numbers do say that the sexual assault cases have gone down. So now, in the US, someone is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes. In Canada, it is estimated that one in four women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime (and many of those women will be sexually assaulted many times).
And apparently reporting rape has gone up somewhat over the last couple decades. However, it is still one of the most underreported crimes in both countries. And still, your use of the past tense when you say "rape went largely unreported," is totally incorrect. Rape is still largely unreported. In the US, it is estimated that 60% of rape cases go unreported. And in Canada, "sexual assault is a vastly under-reported crime. According to Statistics Canada, only 6% of all sexual assaults are reported to police."
It is really not at all okay to make sweeping generalizations about historical and global trends in terms of how rape is no longer unreported. DO YOUR HOMEWORK! It took about 2 minutes - enough time for another woman to be sexually assaulted in the US - to find and put together the info in the above two paragraphs.
"Also historically, rape has been used as a weapon against powerless men."
Unless you're going to get into a much more indepth discussion on the issue, I'm curious as to why you included this? Why are you highlighting the very very few examples of unfounded rape cases as opposed to the *vast majority* of cases that have merit? That women lie about rape is a common myth about rape.
Also, I'm not sure how the example you use is a relevant comparison in terms of "powerless men." Are you really comparing *Julian Assange* to an African-American man being lynched because of his skin colour, whatever the excuse may be? Really? Julian Assange is a powerless man on par with an African-American man being lynched because of his race?
"Some people react to any accusation of sexual abuse and assault as if women routinely lie about rape to get attention or to get revenge."
Honestly, it really seems like that is what you are actually promoting in the first half of your post, by explaining that women lie about rape, how accusations of rape are used as a weapon, etc. Except for stating that you stand in solidarity, everything else in your post thus far has been to question women making allegations of rape, not to support them and take each and every allegation seriously.
"That's beyond preposterous. It's disgusting and it's dangerous and it's wrong. We must speak out about it at every opportunity."
That's what I'm doing here. Because neither you nor I get to decide what happened, or if a woman is lying or not. Or if a man is lying or not, for that matter. The starting point must be to take all allegations of rape and sexual assault seriously. To do otherwise would be "preposterous," "disgusting," "dangerous," and "wrong," and we should "speak out about it at every opportunity."
"But other people react to those same incidents as if every single accusation must necessarily be valid. As if, in the history of the world, no one has ever accused a man of rape in order to silence him, or no woman has ever lied about being raped. That's not possible."
*Who* is saying that *every* allegation of rape is true? The point is that neither you nor I get to decide which allegations are valid and which are not. If anyone has said that "every single accusation must necessarily be valid," I would encourage you to include their statement and respond to it directly.
"Women are people. Like all people, women can lie, cheat, steal, murder, support fascism, and any other despicable act you can name."
Who is saying that women never lie? Of course women are human. Of course sometimes some women lie. Of course there are allegations of *every* kind of crime that fall into that. But *highlighting* that "not all accusations of rape are valid and true" is difficult to interpret as merely a statement of fact. When do people ever *highlight* the fact that any other allegations are not all valid and true? Or *highlight* the fact that some men lie?
It seems that a lot of "responses" to the issue are using it as an excuse to say all kinds of things that are not actually responding to anything anyone has said. If there are responses that say something to the effect of "no woman ever lies" that you are actually responding to, then I would suggest quoting that or those post(s), citing the authors and providing links if possible, and then responding directly to them in your piece.
"But defending Julian Assange and WikiLeaks is not defending rape."
I would add: But defending the right of the women alleging rape to be taken seriously is not attacking Julian Assange or WikiLeaks.
Let's leave WikiLeaks out of this on this comment, since no one is accusing WikiLeaks of any sex crime, as far as I know. And Julian Assange is not WikiLeaks, nor is WikiLeaks Julian Assange.
One can defend Julian Assange's rights to freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to a fair trial, etc... and not automatically defend him against allegations of sexual assault or rape. That's not our call. If there is enough evidence for formal charges to be laid and the case goes to trial, then that defense will be the role of his lawyer.
All the best,
Sandra Cuffe
clarifying - my post was not in response to yours
Sandra,
I thought I left this comment yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have appeared.
I just wanted to clarify that I the first comment on this post - which is a link to my blog - was not posted by me, but by "djh", who is presumably a reader of my blog (although I don't know him/her). I didn't write my post in response to yours. This is in fact my first visit to your blog.
There are some comments on wmtc about your comment. Please feel free to come by and respond if you like.
Also, a notorious troll who was banned from my blog years ago may be harassing you, posing as a friend of mine. He posts as Magnolia_2000. He's a real sicko. He sometimes appears on blogs on which I comment or which link to me, either posing as a friend or trying to stir shit up. He has no affiliation with my blog other than as a useless disrupter.
Thanks and all best,
Laura K (L-girl)
oops
Hi Laura,
Oh, sorry about that. I thought you were leaving the link to your post here. I'm trying to get to other things, so now keeping the responses to a minimum. Glad your post generated a lot of discussion and positive response, though.
& thanks for the warning re the sicko troll. I haven't had any awful responses (although comments by non-mediacoop members are moderated, so they might be deleted, i don't know), I'm tagging that with a mental post-it note.
Thanks!
Sandra
Thanks for making my life more complicated.
Not that that's a bad thing.
I too am guilty of reading the Counterpunch article and performed the mentally lazyact of accepting the author's accusation of CIA connections at face value. On first reading I was put off by the fanboy like idealisation of Assange and the proliferation of smears against his two accusers but I found the conspiratorial charges rang true mainly because of a) the timing b) the fact that the charges were initially withdrawn and c) the claims by Assange's lawyer that Swedish prosecutor's have been uncooperative.
Now I'm going to have to ditch the observer bias I've been indulging and start investigating the sources publishing in the venues I thought were reliable.
Oh, the horror!
G
Repost?
Amazing piece. May I please repost this on the Bay Area Indymedia (indybay.org) website?
Of course!
As long as the author and source (VMC) are credited, re-post away!
:)
Sandra
Reposted!
https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/12/12/18666424.php
I agree in theory...
I will begin by saying I know this is gonna get me bashed... Anyhow, while you make some good points considering the allegations, fairness is essential under the law. Without substatiation, without evidence, the law becomes a game of he said she said. I.E. if a woman doesn't fight against her rapist, she must not have cared enough to fight. If we allow allegations like this to have value by virtue of word alone, people will start claiming rape when they learn that their friends didn't approve or parents. So, I'm sorry if you don't have the self-respect to give your "rapist" some bruising and fight them off, then you deserve your bruised ego. To reiterate, how can you prove you said no when he said you said yes. The answer- give him a black eye!
rape myths
Why did you think it would get you bashed? Curious...
This - "if a woman doesn't fight against her rapist, she must not have cared enough to fight - is a blatant myth about rape. If you knew you were going to get slammed for making that comment, I suppose you already know that, but continue to toss around the idea anyways, so I won't waste my time commenting further.
Missed the point...
Of course, that is only one issue I raise. While I cannot personally understand not fighting back against a rapist, it may happen. But, instead of actually reading the message I wrote, you tell me I'm wasting your time... Well, MOST of what I wrote was in regard to the ability to fairly establish that rape has occurred. Like I said, without physical evidence, the prosecution only has he said she said BS to work with. In your scheme, we should always believe women who claim to have been raped. When it comes to legality, you cannot fairly establish a case based simply on a statement. Who do you believe when one says "yes" and the other said "no"? When the possiblity of jailing the innocent and the possiblity of catching the bad guy are but the flip of a coin from each other, it isn't worth the risk of putting the innocent in jail. Thanks for your careful reading of my points.(sarcasm intended)
Yeah, um, that's not what the law says
Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. If someone is passed out and you're having sex with them, you are raping them. If someone is three times your size and pinning you down, good luck trying to fight them off. Freezing because you are afraid (or because you cannot physically fight back) doesn't mean that you lack self-respect. Making the assertion you did does show that you're an ignorant jackass.
But--if you get mugged by some dude with a knife or a gun and you hand the money over to avoid getting stabbed or shot, good luck proving it in court if the jury held similar ideas to yours. How do they know you didn't just give him your wallet and changed your mind later? It's your word against his! He didn't leave a mark on you. And if someone picks your pocket, good luck pressing charges if they're found with your stuff. After all, you could have given it to them and then wanted it back. You could be some attention hog. And it's not like they had to hurt you, so you didn't fight them off hard enough. You should have been more careful.
Let's all be honest…
… the subject is much more complex I find now, than I was ever aware of. Mmh. I find, you are both right at the same time, Sandra made that drastically clear to me in her extremely honest response to my reply: if you are shocked, or scared you might not defend yourself. So, can we agree upon those points:
– Sex without consent is rape
– It is possible, that she didn't defend herself, so there might be word against word
– Every woman/man that might be a survivor of sexual assault / rape should be taken very seriously
– If rape is defined as «having sex with somebody against her/his will» it is only men that can rape [in german the expression «Vergewaltigung» has a broader meaning. Getting pregnant and getting a child against his consent could here also be defined as a «Vergewaltigung» of a man by a woman. That would represent a vice versa case and not by physical force but by social force but is not the broader topic here.]
– This doesn't mean that a) every man is a rapist, b) every accusation of sexual assault/rape is true BUT
– given the societal fact, that bodily force is involved there is a big chance that a lot of true rape cases never get retaliated because the woman was actually threatened – socially, culturally or physically
– The best way to have a settlement would theoretically be a settlement between the two parties (I'm aware that this is very ideological)
– If the survivors wish is to have recourse to legal advice, justice needs to have some proovable facts (these can be hard facts like sperm for example or soft facts (coherence of story, story timeline, neighbours hearing a dispute…), but…
– usually, and here lies a big problem I think, in the western world someone counts as innocent until proven guilty (something I find basically correct) which in this case debalances the account much, much to the disadvantage of a woman, because sometimes there are no proofs of the rape.
– and last but not least, the situation get's even more complicated because sometimes there might be behaviors involved during a sexual act, that DO happen with consent but could in other circumstances count as a sexual assault and – let's be honest – how many of you sign a legal binding contract every time before you have sex with someone?
So – what's the solution?
But how can we/justice honor truth then??
oooh, s**t, this sounds all too true. I was never aware of that in this way. But how can we / a third party honor truth then in such crime cases, if there's word against word?
Thank you
"So let's get this straight. You can wrap your head around the fact that there is cross-border collusion and manipulation by police, judicial, and other governmental authorities from various countries... and I agree that there is... but yo...u cannot understand that there may *also* have actually been a sexual assault? Just because someone is being persecuted for their work means that they cannot be guilty of something like sexual harassment?"
WORD. Thank you!
I find the timing of the
I find the timing of the Interpol warrant to be dubious, to say the least. But I fully concur that this should not be an invitation to undermine the possibility that a crime has been committed and should be treated accordingly.
I find the timing of the
I find the timing of the Interpol warrant to be dubious, to say the least. But I fully concur that this should not be an invitation to undermine the possibility that a crime has been committed and should be treated accordingly.
This was a great and very
This was a great and very necessary rant. I really appreciate it. The unfounded, hyperbolic and mysoginist outpourings being spewed out all over the media and Internet have been very disturbing, particularly when coming from so-called progressives.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/09/rundle-r-pe-case-complainant-has-lef...
search for truth
dear sandra,
i think all you say in your article is absolutely correct. however let me add some additional points out of a man's point of view (which still make your points not untrue but leave them all valid points!):
1. IF assange should be right (and again, as you stated yourself, i'm NOT saying he IS right) and the accusations of the two women cannot be uphold, still for a man those accusations could result in a life-long damage of his reputation.
2. although your statet facts and arguments - i think - are all true (excuse my poor english, it isn't my mothertongue) there are some additional arguments that irritate me a lot:
- both women decided to go to the police only after they learned of the OTHER women having been with assange in the same timespan. (although this could be explained by the fact that it is probably much easier to go to the police if you have a support with you, especially if that support lived through similar things as yourself)
- none of the women filed a complaint, at least not in august (is that true? who know's more detailed and proven facts? please share). why would they two months later?
- question: would you throw a party for someone that raped you the night before? please don't jump this argument of mine but answer me as honestly as you can, sandra.
but in one thing i'm totally with you (if i understood you right): there's a lot of speculation and unsure conclusions that have to be professionally researched and become hardened facts by the right people (justice, court, lawyers...). for example: is it true, that Anna Ardin erased some tweets and blogs on her former blog: http://annaardin.bloggy.se Why would she do that. That renders her only suspicious, no? For example this one: For details see here http://radsoft.net/news/20101001,01.shtml and here: http://radsoft.net/news/20101202,00.shtml.
kind regards, caio
Hi Caio, I really really
Hi Caio,
I really really really recommend that you take a look at Stephanie Zvan's piece "How She Must Behave to Have Been Raped" on her blog Almost Diamonds (it's hyperlinked in my piece a couple of times). Most of your concerns are myths.
To answer your question honestly, I'm not sure why it matters that I personally answer the question, but I will: I was sexually assaulted and then went back to volunteer alongside my assailant the following morning. That should raise zero doubts about the woman or her allegations. Could have been a party. Could have been anything. Doesn't mean anything.
Sandra
I didn't read Stephanie's
I didn't read Stephanie's article yet but will do so right after my answer here. But… oh I lack the words Sandra … I didn't intend to push you to tell your story that touches and shocks me at the same time. And that sounds also honest and true to me. I'm so sorry for what happened to you. But thank you for explaining to me and sharing it with me.
Be well,
Caio
search for truth
dear sandra,
i think all you say in your article is absolutely correct. however let me add some additional points out of a man's point of view (which still make your points not untrue but leave them all valid points!):
1. IF assange should be right (and again, as you stated yourself, i'm NOT saying he IS right) and the accusations of the two women cannot be uphold, still for a man those accusations could result in a life-long damage of his reputation.
2. although your statet facts and arguments - i think - are all true (excuse my poor english, it isn't my mothertongue) there are some additional arguments that irritate me a lot:
- both women decided to go to the police only after they learned of the OTHER women having been with assange in the same timespan. (although this could be explained by the fact that it is probably much easier to go to the police if you have a support with you, especially if that support lived through similar things as yourself)
- none of the women filed a complaint, at least not in august (is that true? who know's more detailed and proven facts? please share). why would they two months later?
- question: would you throw a party for someone that raped you the night before? please don't jump this argument of mine but answer me as honestly as you can, sandra.
- and: if a condom breaks during intercourse but it is only noticed by both partners afterwards, and her opinion is: "if i had known before that the condom breaks i wouldn't have had sex with you" then this cannot be considered rape. because in that case the consentual sex lastet until its end and the situation only became nonconsentual AFTER the end of intercourse.
but in one thing i'm totally with you (if i understood you right): there's a lot of speculation and unsure conclusions that have to be professionally researched and become hardened facts by the right people (justice, court, lawyers...). for example: is it true, that Anna Ardin erased some tweets and blogs on her former blog: http://annaardin.bloggy.se Why would she do that. That renders her only suspicious, no? For example this one: For details see here http://radsoft.net/news/20101001,01.shtml and here: http://radsoft.net/news/20101202,00.shtml.
kind regards, caio
double post
see my response above.
Sorry for the double post
Sorry for the double post Sandra
i did not post the above link to my blog
Hi,
I just want to clarify, since you are responding to something I wrote. The link to my blog post at the top of this thread was not posted by me, but by someone who reads my blog. This is the first time I've been to this site.
On my blog, a few readers have responded to your post, in case you want to read those.
Thanks,
L-girl
response above
comments by folks who aren't members of the mediacoop are moderated, and not always every day, so i answered the other comment. see above. :)
Guardian piece
I know that there are now a gazillion posts out there on the subject, but I just wanted to highlight this piece by Esther Adley, published on Tuesday (although I missed it until just now) by The Guardian: "How the rape claims against Julian Assange sparked an information war," concerning how "Conspiracies, slander and misogyny have become every bit as central to debate as principles of justice."
Thanks to all for all of your comments and support.
- Sandra
l.girl and wmtc
sandra honey theyre ripping you a new one over on wmtc.ca. l.girl is a real bitch and thats not an insult. she doesnt suffer fools and i'm afraid you made a fool of yourself on her blog. we all support laura and her wmtc blog and dont appreciate you going on there and making stupid statements. this is all about the u.s. trying to bring assange to the states to prosecute him and theyre using these tarts in sweden to do it. dont argue with laura. she knows what shes talking about.
TROLL
l-girl told me about you. fuck off.
troll
Ah, well said! Thanks Sandra :)
The woman denies her role? & The Swedish prosecutors buy it?
This was a well-written piece (the anger did not detract from the logic), but the debate does have another side. I offer the other side not as an attack on the article, but as a compliment (in both ways). I agree, I have no idea of the truth in the Assange accusations, but without any truth I can state some truth!
I am shocked that the Swedish prosecutors took these 2 cases.
1. She accuses him of being on top ("holding her down"). Best defense: silence.
2. She accuses him of not using a condom (2x). Best defense: silence.
3. She accuses him of sleep-rape. Best defense: silence.
What is left for a jury to consider? She said she said, but there is no proof.
Swedes drive on the right, the English on the left. Swedish men are considerate, Englishmen are boors. I hear - "I consented to Swedish sex, but he was a boor!" "I told him to cock right, but he cocked left!" I'm not driven to draw conclusions of assault.
A woman consents to sex. Later she changes her mind. But he is in the midsts of ecstasy. "No" is not going to do it, and once he begins ejaculating, there is no defense "I told him to stop" - a man cannot physically stop ejaculating once he starts. If the woman still has time to get out of the embrace that SHE got herself into it, SHE needs to get out of it. Wiggle, scream, spit, scratch, rollover and leave. I'm not buying "he just continued." SHE just continued too.
He lied about the condom. She lied about a hundred things. People are liars. If lying to get sex were a crime, all sex would be criminal. The dance of love is not about truth. It is about display, strutting, convincing someone hesitant to throw caution to the wind. If the peacock had to rely on truth, there would be no pea eggs. "But last night he was so beautiful, this morning he is just a bedraggled rooster." Oh well, not rape.
Sex is messy. Anything involving two people is messy. Control is shared, and not equally or statically. I'm not buying the accusation of messiness as crime.
She found out she couldn't trust him. But she had just met him! Take a stranger home to your bed and complain that you shockingly found out he can't be trusted? Where is the woman's culpability? Oh, she thought she was fucking a famous guy, with a special scrotum, but he turned out to be just another lout with a dick. Oh well. Famous guys have the same equipment as us ordinary folk. Not assault.
The sleep accusation is bothersome. But I'm not buying it.
Both men and women know that sex can lead to pregnancy and STDs. Once amore is underway, anything can and does happen. Sex was designed to get women pregnant. There is just no point railing against nature - in this case the nature of men.
I am tired of the stereotypes that men are manipulating beasts and women helpless victims. I am tired of the false cries of rape and women manipulating men. I walked away from the whole sex betrayal thing 20 years ago and have no desire to go back. Betrayal drove me off. When I hear women complain that they cannot find a decent man, I silently think, yes, I am the most decent man on the planet (yuck!) and you wouldn't give me a 5 minute date. Women turn down decent men. They are looking for a leg up in society, and money. I offer neither. Yes, a stereotype, but unbroken in 20 years. Yes, my own advice, there is no point railing against the nature of women. I don't. This is the first I have said in 20 years. I walked away in silence.
thanks
Thanks for your comments.
Boring troll is boring. Whiny
Boring troll is boring.
Whiny Nice Guy (TM) is whiny.
Sandra Cuffe. Allege, it's
Sandra Cuffe. Allege, it's you who raped those 2 women, sexually assalted Assange and fucked our brains. It may be you or not. This is conclusion of your rant. Don't be angry. I only joking if you do)
PS. You speak foul / obscene language. Russian women are not such dissolute, as are you. But wicked behaviour is contaminating. This may read children. Or in your county it is rule of conduct. Then my commiserations to you.
Sandra Cuffe. Allege, it's
Sandra Cuffe. Allege, it's you who raped those 2 women, sexually assalted Assange and fucked our brains. It may be you or not. This is conclusion of your rant. Don't be angry. I only joking if you do)
PS your speak foul / obscene language. Russian women are not such dissolute, as are you. But wicked behaviour is contaminating. This may read children. Or in your county it is rule of conduct. Then my commiserations to you.
kids & foul language
Hot damn, if children are reading the Vancouver Media Coop: YOU KIDS ARE FUCKING AWESOME!
- Sandra
We now khow that vancouver.mediacoop.ca censors.
You are simpy bastards who violate the law in force.
You will be paybacked.
Give me a break
Comments are moderated. So they don't always get published right away. But, seriously, give me a break. Anyone can sign up for an account, publish what they want, comment what they want, without moderation. If something was disgustingly offensive (homophobic, racist, sexist, etc) I imagine it *might* get taken down, but posting and commenting are open.
Sorry. You just lagging as
Sorry. You just lagging as MasterCard did.
Anonymous dont attack media. Anonymous try to protect freedom of speech.
Anonymous seek suppord from Media. Courts should be unprejudiced, unbiased.
Women, we are all the people, we are the children.
Real men needs help from women to protect our common freedom from Censors, tyrants, oppressors, violators, rapists., corrupted authorities, courts...
Only if united we can win.
Please, support:
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